Episode 6: Chad's Story

Disclaimer:

Thank you for listening to the “I’m Not Okay” Podcast. The purpose of this podcast is to create a space for men to share their stories, express vulnerability, and find strength through honest conversation. While these discussions may touch on mental health topics, I am not a licensed therapist, counselor, or mental health professional. The content is intended to inspire connection, openness, and personal reflection—not to replace professional mental health support. 

If you are experiencing mental health issues or need support, please seek help from a qualified professional or mental health organization in your area. For immediate help, please call 988 to reach the National Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. This resource is available 24/7 and is free and confidential. 

 Resources:

Emergency Support:

• National Suicide & Crisis Lifeline – Dial 988 (24/7, free, confidential)
  https://988lifeline.org

Men-Specific Support:

• HeadsUpGuys – Mental health support for men
  https://headsupguys.org
• The Movember Foundation – Men’s health and mental health advocacy
  https://us.movember.com/mens-health/mental-health

 General Support:

• NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) – Education, support, helpline
  https://nami.org | HelpLine: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264)
• Mental Health America – Screening tools, resources, and local support
  https://mhanational.org
• Crisis Text Line – Text HELLO to 741741 (24/7 support via text)
  https://www.crisistextline.org

Therapist & Counseling Finders:

• Psychology Today – Find a therapist by location/specialty
  https://www.psychologytoday.com
• Therapy for Black Men – Culturally competent mental health support
  https://therapyforblackmen.org
• BetterHelp – Online therapy platform
  https://www.betterhelp.com

The Crucible Project

https://thecrucibleproject.org/

Contact:

contact.imnotokay@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I kind of saw my my dad as you know just just somebody that worked really hard. And not and I never I never felt like it was to our detriment. It was like, okay, like dad's working hard so he can you know pay the bills and fix the car and you know like you still did things, you know, like yard work, stuff like that, you know. Um so it was like, okay, like as a man, you provide for your family and you work hard.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Welcome back to I'm not okay. A big thank you to everyone who's listened so far, and I'm really excited for my next guest. So uh thank you so much for being here today. Um I'm grateful you're open to sharing your story. Let's start at the beginning. Can you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yeah, my name is uh Chad Lewall. Uh be actually 39 on Tuesday, March 17th. So that's uh exciting, I guess. Uh I'm a married man, father of three. I have a 12-year-old son and two daughters, both um full of life. Well, all three of them full of life, but my daughters specifically. They're 10 and 8. So um yeah, I'm excited to be here. Tell me a little bit about what your childhood was like. Uh so I I will say it was a bit atypical. Um, so my dad, my mom was his second marriage, and he was born in 1940. So I'm one of five kids, if you count my half-sister, she graduated college the year I was born. So um, you know, a little bit of a different dynamic there to say the least. But uh you know, my dad was also 16 years older than my mom. Even still, um, I kind of look at the way I was raised versus some of my peers um as kind of like a little more old-fashioned. You know, my dad was raised by basically his grandparents because his mom was more or less a single mom. She didn't stay with my grandfather. So that kind of created this, you know, mentality. And back then it was pretty par for the course that like the dad goes to work, he earns a living, comes home, might do a few things around the house, but you know, more or less he was the breadwinner and that was his purpose. You know, so that kind of dictated what my um you know what my dad how my dad acted, you know. So yeah, as far as yeah, my childhood, I grew up in uh Columbia, Maryland, um, just outside Baltimore. And I lived there till I was 12, and then my parents divorced. Um my dad actually moved up into the Frederick area. Um, and then me, my mom, and my brother, uh, we moved just outside of Philadelphia and moved in with uh my stepdad. And then we would, you know, my mom would bring us, you know, maybe a couple weeks during the summer, you know, she'd take us to the Frederick area during, you know, the holidays or whatever. Um my sisters at the time were already in college, so they would, you know, come visit. So it was it was, you know, I know I'm not the only one to ever experience something like that, but it was a uh, yeah, I would say I would say different. You know, my upbringing was not your typical um, you know, nuclear family, you know, that type of thing. So which in retrospect it's you know, it's shaped who I am today, you know, for better or for worse. Um yeah. As far as you know, my formative years, you know, I formed a lot of friendships and and things with my you know peers and when I was living outside Philly and you know, I still kind of consider that you know home away from home, um, even though I'm back in the uh the Frederick area. And about how old were you when you moved to Philly? Uh I think I well let's see, it would have been October of ninety-nine, so I was I was twelve going on thirteen. So I'd s it was actually interesting because I had started seventh grade in the c the school district where I initially grew up, and then had to move after like halfway through the second quarter, um, or for halfway through the first quarter, I guess it would have been, and then just completely re-established myself in a in a junior high school, which if you're not familiar, junior high is different than middle school. It's actually seventh, eighth, and ninth grade. Um, so it was a completely different um world. You know, I went from being like one of a class of I don't know, probably 300 kids to a class of close to like a thousand, just because it was Philly Metro. Um, you know, so the schools are a lot bigger, you know. Um but uh but yeah, it's yeah, that that that was a bit uh you know jarring to say the least, but I've always been kind of extroverted, so like as mad as I was with the circumstances of why we had moved, yeah, I was fast to make some some good friends, which was which was helpful.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, and that's a really difficult time uh in a child's life too, middle school to be pulled from an area where you you were already established, you had friends to then be thrown into a different area and a different type of school and a much larger school, too. Um was that challenging for you? Did you find that you know difficult, or did you find that you kind of found your people pretty quickly?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Um I one of the things is as I'll never forget, and it it's funny because toward the end through high school, uh me and her actually became pretty close. It was this girl named Jackie, and um I remember my first day getting on the bus to go home. Uh I was sitting on, I was the first one on the bus, and she gets on the bus, never seen her. She was a year older than me, so like I'd never seen her, you know, I didn't have classes with her or anything like that. And he gets on the bus and goes, Who the F is that guy? Because, you know, with the you know, you ride the same bus every day for school, they've been in school already for a month or whatever at that point. So like on this fresh face that you've never seen before, let alone, you know, a lot of the the kids had grown up together coming through elementary school into into junior high. And that stood out. So it was like things like that, little things like that, they kind of were jarring. And then, you know, just other challenges were the way their admissions works or worked was different. So it was like I had started when I was still living in Maryland taking like foreign language. I took Spanish, you know, in sixth grade, and then you know, started Spanish second level and seventh grade. And then when I moved, you know, I guess I tested too low on the reading comprehension or whatever. So they kind of forced me to take like reading 101 for lack of a better description. I don't remember exactly what it was called. And I remember my mom and me both advocating for like, well, what about like foreign language? Like he's already established there, like shouldn't we continue that? And they're like, no, no, no, he needs to go through this, that, and the other. And it was like, okay, well, this sucks. You know, because I really enjoyed Spanish. It's actually, you know, I wish I could be fluent in it. I understand it really well, but yeah, it was it was things like that were that were just kind of a bit jarring on top of everything else that's going on. As as much as I was able to assimilate pretty quick, it made a few fast friends, you know, still kind of like this weight of those types of things that like kind of and then of course fueled by you know situation with my parents separating and all that, just like just kind of weighed heavily at times.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah. And how often did you get a chance to uh visit with your dad? And I'm I'm assuming you can kind of travel back and forth. Was that fairly often or was it not?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Yeah, so it it kind of turned into you know holidays and then through the summer when we weren't in school, we would be in a more extended period of time. You know, I kinda I never really I never really pushed the issue of like, mom, I want you to take me to see dad or anything like that. It was like, hey, we live with mom, this is where I live now. You know, I kinda I I made peace with that part of it pretty quick. Like I kind of understood the situation um to that degree. But yeah, it was kind of like and they, I mean, they went back and forth on, you know, trying to make it work. They really didn't want to like involve courts over custody and stuff like that. To my knowledge, I mean, yeah, my they both kept it pretty close to the vest as far as what you know, that type of thing, especially since I was the youngest, you know. I'm four years younger than my brother, and my brother was already in high school when we moved. So it was like, you know, he probably had more of a grasp on it than I did at that point. But but yeah, I mean, and then you know, when I would come see my dad, my dad, you know, to his nature was just kind of a workaholic. Um so more often than not than not. Yeah, sometimes I would just stay home at his in his condo, play my Game Boy or whatever, whatever entertainment I could I could find for myself. Um you know, otherwise I would go to work with him. Which was, I mean, kind of cool. I still got to spend time with him. He uh he would actually he worked for a um like a window coverage company, like blinds and shutters and stuff like that. So we drive around different houses and he go in and measure the windows and he'd let me go in sometimes with him. So yeah, it's kind of cool. Um, you know, if I'm being honest, I got you know, like I said, the the core of it was, hey, I get to spend time with my dad and you know, oh, he's gonna buy me lunch, that type of thing. So it's like um yeah, I'm not gonna discredit that by any means. But yeah, so I mean as far as far as frequency, it probably could have been higher, but you know, it was kind of like I understood why. I mean, we were two and a half hours away. It wasn't you know, when I did go see him, we met like north of Baltimore, I think it's called Rising Sun. It's like right off 95. Yeah, so we'd yeah, my mom and dad would meet up there at a truck stop and you know, we'd switch and you know, however long I was going, a week or just a few days for Thanksgiving or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Gotcha. Yeah. So I mean, during your early years, um, you know, you were you were with your father you know most of the time or all of the time. And then you know, going into middle school, um, you didn't really see him as much, and and now you had a stepfather as well. So during those times, I guess you could kind of talk about the before and after if you want. Um, but growing up, what messages did you get or did you receive by what it means to be a man?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

So I I kind of saw my my dad as you know just just somebody that worked really hard. And not and I never I never felt like it was to our detriment. It was like, okay, like dad's working hard so he can, you know, pay the bills and fix the car, and you know, like he still did things, you know, like yard work, stuff like that, you know. Um so it was like, okay, like as a man, you provide for your family and you work hard. And you know, just as a as an aside to that, my my dad was never particularly strong as far as faith goes. Um we went to church, but uh you you probably would never see him reading his Bible or anything like that. It's like we're gonna go on Sunday, I'm gonna put on my sport coat and my tie, and then we're gonna leave, and I'm gonna come home and watch football, and and then you know, I'm gonna go back to work on Monday and do my weekly routine. Um so it was like, okay, uh a man is somebody that works hard, provides for his family, you know, in in whatever capacity he can. Um so that was kind of like my initial impression. And you know, it was similar, you know, obviously my you know, with my dad being older, my grandfather was older as well. So it was like looking at that model, you know, at that point he was like, because he was so much older, there wasn't much of a dynamic other than like, hey, I'm a young grandson. Um I love loved my grandpa, but there wasn't like a whole lot of like deep relationship there, um, just because of his age, I think more than anything. Not that he didn't engage with his grandkids, his younger grandkids, but it was like, you know, to what degree could he at that point? So um I would I would say like maybe maybe shall is not the right word, but like it was hard to kind of gauge from my dad and other male influences in my life at that time, like before my parents separated, like was there more to being a man, if that makes sense. Um yeah, I think I think there was it was just like kind of what I from what I can remember more than anything.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Okay. Yeah. So then going into your you know middle school years, you you now have a stepfather. Uh tell me about that dynamic. You know, did he teach you anything about kind of like what you what you're supposed to be as a man? Are there kind of any like disciplinary things that were different that you kind of had to adapt to?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Um so interestingly enough, my stepdad was he was like, I don't know, think Sylvester Stallone in the 80s. Yeah, he he he was very much like a man's man. He drove a Harley, he had a uh firebird that he took extra good care of, he was a professional uh bodybuilder at a time at a time, like competed or was coached by Schwarzenegger, like he was um he was something else. Um he uh but the dynamic um and I under I understood this almost immediately because I mean you always you always see it depicted with a stepdad, like you're not my real dad, type of thing. Um and I very much was aware of that, but I never held it against him. I was like, that's not even fair to hold against him. But I think that was almost like a shared mentality for him because it was very much like I don't know that I have the right to discipline these boys at the level that I think they need. So oftentimes it was like my mom, like, Steve, are you gonna say anything? You know, if if we got in trouble or something like that. So it was almost like his hand was forced more often than not because he didn't really know where the boundary was. I think he was worried about like damaging the relationship. Um not that he I mean, me and my brother weren't overtly terrible teenagers. So it wasn't like there was a whole lot for him to need to discipline, um, which probably made him feel feel pretty good. But um, but yeah, I think there was that that dynamic. Um and if, you know, as as far as like influence and different, you know, um, if it was any different than like what I picked up as far as being a man from him is it it quite honestly, probably not much different. It was, you know, I yeah, I work, he was, you know, a health nut. I mean, that might have been the only difference. You know, he liked to he liked me to go running with him, you know, every Saturday morning, which, you know, was good. You know, that's not a bad thing by any means. He, you know, he loved loved every sport uh known to man, so like going out and having a catch or something, or you know, him coming to baseball games. So yeah, I mean uh it j overall and in general, um, other than the unfortunate circumstance of divorce, um you know, he was a he was a good stepfather. Um so yeah, it's yeah. That that that's why I always say like my formative years, you know, were a little more impactful in developing who I am than my early years, which I think kind of is par for the course for everybody, but um, you know, in f insofar as you know, ex life experience, I think there was much more of a drastic impact through that time.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Was vulnerability something that was encouraged in your home or was it more hidden?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Um as far as like when I was real little, I don't really have a good recollection of, you know, how I mean I'm an emotional guy, and I've always been emotional. So like I don't think I was ever like told like you know, suck it up or anything like that. Um, or you know, don't you're not allowed to cry or anything like that. Um from from uh you know the formative year standpoint Steve did kind of have the mentality of like, hey, we're men, we're tough, we don't you know, we don't have and it's it's I've always looked at that as a generational thing, like and uh a secular thing as well. Because I think if we're you know if we're gonna look at it from a biblical standpoint, like the Bible's very clear that it's okay to have emotions, it's when we let them control us that's the problem. Um so you know, I've always you know tried to be mindful of that. So I kind of like not that I want to give a pass, but like that's probably not something that was even introduced to you know either my stepdad or my dad. Definitely not my dad, you know, back then, you know, through the you know 40s and 50s, that was like, you know, men are men and women are women and this, that, and the other. Um, but uh but yeah, I think as I got older, it was like okay, well, I'm not gonna not feel what I feel. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna you know, cry if I need to cry, that type of thing. But but yeah, that the that dynamic with me and my stepdad was like, you know, we're men, this is how we act. He was, I should add, he was a former Marine as well. So um a lot of macho packed into a dude that was actually not very big. He was only about five, six. Um yeah, I remember meeting him for you know the first time, and it was like, I'm as tall as you already. Uh but yeah, that's uh yeah, it was it it with with his nature, it was like kind of an understanding. Like I've always tried to give people the benefit of the doubt. Like I'm not like you have certain opinions, you know, I'm not gonna like crucify you for them. You know, it's it's um and I've I've I think I've kind of been that way my whole life. You know, it's it's just you know, I try to understand where people are coming from.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah, it's great. As you've gotten older, how's your view of masculinity changed?

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Well, fortunately it's been shaped by primarily by the Bible and by scripture because I think that's the end all be all. Yeah, as far as who we should be, not only as men or women, but you know, just in general as humans, you know. Um and if we can't adhere to that, then you know what are we doing? You know, so um one thing that I will credit as far as shaping who I am today, um my best friend in Pennsylvania, he actually ended up moving to a different school district in the eighth grade. Um and so we were still close enough, like I would I could bike to his house. Um that's just kind of the nature of how when you live outside of a major city like that, it's you know, school districts are really close together. Um so we would uh I'd go sleep over at his house while he formed a fast friendship with this guy named Mike. And he was like, hey, why don't we sleep over at Mike's house tonight? I was like, okay. And like I'd been going to church at that point, I should I should have mentioned, but um it was kinda like my mom was forcing me. You know, and my stepdad was, you know, of the similar elk of my dad where he would go, but it wasn't like he wasn't doing Bible studies, he wasn't you know, doing anything like that. I would say he was a little bit more devoted than my dad, but um certainly not to the level that you know, we're expected to be if if we're if we're talking, you know, honestly about that. Um but anyway, so uh my buddy Mark, he's like, yeah, he's like the only caveat is if we sleep over mics, his parents insist that we go to church with him the next morning. And I was like, uh dude, like you know me. Like you know my mom forcing me to go to church. It's not a big deal. I don't care. I can sit in an hour in a church and be fine. Um and so we go to we go to church the next day um yeah after sleeping over Mike's house hanging out and um Mark and Mike introduced me to the youth pastor. His name's Will and Will's like well we're having youth group tonight like all three of you guys should come back like literally can walk to the church from Mike's house. I was like and Mark's like is that cool? I was like yeah whatever I don't care like I did youth group growing up and you know all that stuff um fast forward um I would credit Will a lot for shaping who I am as a matter of fact next weekend I'll be going to New York to visit him um he has a church up uh outside of the city in a small to small town called uh Suffron New York and um yeah so he uh he married me and my wife he's been a constant influence over the last let's see almost thirty years I mean it's yeah pretty pretty incredible so um yeah as as far as being able to you know kind of give any credit to who I am today is there's a lot of influences but between what I know about scripture and you know the influence from somebody like Will and some of the other youth leaders through my middle and high school years that would be what's what's shaped me now and my view of masculinity is that you know we had the perfect picture of what a man should be in Jesus. So try to emulate that as best I can do a pretty terrible job sometimes. But uh but yeah if if I had to say you know what I want to be like that's that's gotta be it.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah it's great I would agree that you know I I definitely feel the pressure you know to to be as much like Jesus as I can and I think we all fall short of that but it's definitely uh a really good goal to have um and uh a good way to to spend your effort for sure so you know you have really good friends and and you know they are very involved in in church and you know you have a great youth pastor who has clearly played a huge role in your life even today you know you're still close to them and I think that's very awesome and also very unique as well. Outside of church circles you know in school or other friends did you ever feel you know pressure to like prove your manhood or did you kind of just know who you were and it really didn't matter any anyone else thought about you?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Through middle school I struggled quite a bit. You know I would say I've always been a pretty even keel person. You know especially as a kid I was you know I was a very happy kid. And then through middle school you know obviously probably the crux of that is the circumstance with divorce but you know it was um kind of not knowing who I wanted to be um you know did I want to did I want to be a skater kid did I want to be you know did I want to join the chess team like you know it was uh it was like and and I think that's just the nature of that age you know to a certain degree you know I I had the benefit I'll say benefit of doing youth ministry at another church for like ten years so I was like got to experience that like and share my experiences um through that age and just like not having an identity um and it's it's pretty difficult but you know by the time by the time I got probably we'll say probably 10th grade I was kind of just friends with everybody. You know I've like I said I've I've always been really extroverted um I love talking to people I love learning about people and who they are um so I kind of just made it a goal like hey I'm gonna be friends with whoever I'm friends with and you know I don't I don't know if anybody had the same experience but you know it's very much like a teen movie through the early 2000s when you walk into a cafeteria you have like you know self-segregation of of the uh the popularity groups and I was one of those kids I could float between any table that I wanted to and sit down and I knew at least three or four friendly with three or four people at that table. Just because I was like you know I like people you know I'm gonna I'm gonna chat them up I'm gonna be friends with them I'm gonna treat them kindly you know that type of thing so um yeah I kinda kinda I would say found myself in about 10th grade um but even prior to that I mean I remember being challenged because yeah I played football and um just like you know my coach I don't think my coach liked me very much. I didn't like him very much unfortunately he he was one of the main reasons I stopped playing because I knew he was going to continue to coach and I didn't want to play for him. Not that he wanted to play me anyway um he very much played favorites on the team but you know I would hear things like you know are you a lady did you forget your skirt today you know that type of thing was like you know go run bear crawls up the hill you know even though I'm trying my my absolute best to do whatever they're asking me to do. Meanwhile kids are goofing off and having no repercussions for it. So it's like um but just just like like come on man I'm doing my best like you don't have to insult me on top of it you know if I'm not doing it right like just very poor coaching um you know so there there were times like that or it's like just other things going on in your life it's compounded by something I've really loved you know turning into this like almost pill or home like almost like homework um it's instead of feeling like oh I get to go to football practice after school and enjoy myself with my buddies and you know hit each other and you know that type of thing. So um but yeah that I I would say and that was like in the interim from when you know I didn't I didn't start playing till um ninth grade.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

So but uh but yeah I think by the time I got into high school I kind of had a better better idea of who I was um and who I was going to be you know yeah definitely so you know you went through um a really difficult uh time in your life in in middle school you know um your parents divorce moving starting over there's a little bit of freedom in that starting over and kind of you know making yourself who you want to be and and trying to figure that out right at that time too which is kind of forcing you to decide who you want to be but um I don't want to overlook how challenging uh that had to have been on you you know and and you know as men and even as young men a lot of times we just we just try to power through right like I I just have to get through this I just have to push through I just have to be strong I just you know got to keep moving on grit my teeth and go you know um but at some point in your life you're kind of forced to deal with some things and and process some things did you ever have that kind of moment in middle school in high school maybe even as a young adult where you kind of look back at what you went through and and kind of process that and deal with some things and maybe you know have ask some questions, get some answers Yeah so I would I would point to kind of right at the end of high school and into my early twenties where kind of like this for lack of a better adjective kind of revelation period um you know I I had at that point been in the youth group for you know five five years you know engaged with the church um was attending that church where you know uh my youth pastor where Will was um so it was like I had a healthy environment there um what wasn't the healthiest is that my mom and my stepdad started to drift drift apart um so like I was older so it didn't impact me as much um I could if I'm being honest I probably couldn't have cared less um it was like okay I've already been through this so if if this is going south and it's going south I'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah I'm about I'm an adult now you know that type of thing um but it was I think that's when and this is probably through like just talking through forgiveness and learning what forgiveness looks like and and and being able to release you know those traumatic events um I again can credit that to where I was from a spiritual standpoint. Not that I was the picture perfect Christian which nobody is but um you know I had good comprehension of what that looked like so it was like okay so am I going to continue to hold on to the fact that my mom and dad separated which caused me a lot of hurt you know caused me a lot of you know trauma a lot of you know angry nights you know in my room wondering why I had to live outside Philadelphia because you know it it's when I was when I was in middle school it was it was the little things like mom said I couldn't go to my buddy's party or something like that. And then it was like that resentment boiled up like you know if you if you stayed with dad uh we wouldn't even be here you know and everything would be fine which not true you know it's it's the uh it's that kind of like you know misnomer that the grass is always greener on the other side yeah um so yeah it was uh I would say by the time I was a senior you know between 18 and 20 it was like why am I still holding on to this you know I I can forgive my mom and dad I can forgive them for that time in my life because at the end of the day they didn't need to be together. They weren't working you know I and I know that's very unbiblical biblical but I can't imagine them staying together you know and and not continuing the same patterns. Sure. Um now fortunately by that time too my mom and dad had a much more um amicable relationship they were a lot more you know communicated a lot better and um but yeah that I I would say that that was kind of a good release you know at that time in my life and then um you know it's it's it's funny how you said like looking back because now I can look back at that time and see where God was working in my life because what ultimately happened is my mom uh and stepdad did separate um and then my mom relocated back to Maryland because at that time my sisters were starting their families and getting married and she wanted to be closer to them when they you know started having kids and stuff like that. So um I was like okay well I'm staying in Philly like this is where I live like and I I can't explain it anything other than you know God's hand in it. But the restaurant I was working at at the time it closed down and I was like all right well there's a million restaurants around here I should be able to get another job bartending serving whatever the case and I could not even get an interview and then you know my mom calls me and she's like I think you need to move to Maryland with me. And I'm like well mom my life's up here like I love you but like my life's up here you know like um at the time I don't think I was dating anybody but like that's where all my friends were it's you know um and then you know I was like all signs pointed I was still living with my stepdad at the time um and he was like he's like you need to find a job I was like I agree I'm trying like yeah I would I would love to find a job it's not that easy yeah and he's like well I gotta start I gotta start charging rent if yeah yeah if if you're not gonna find a job so I was like okay well I guess my choices are find a job or move to Maryland with my mom um and kind of the rest is kind of history I ended up moving back to Maryland and I've been here since 2008 um so which is weird to think it's almost 20 years that I've been in this area. Time flies.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Stop showing our age yes right yeah almost 40 it's incredibly hard to believe so you know looking at your life now you know you you moved again you you started kind of started over again you know in your adult years and you know now you're uh you're married and you have three children you know um a lot has changed in your life since then and um I know for me um becoming a father was pretty scary you know like I knew I always wanted to be a father and I was really excited until it was like oh this is happening in like a month like oh man like am I ready for this like am I capable? You know are there are the good parts going to come out of me or bad parts going to come out of me you know there's a lot of things that that weighed on me. Did you feel like you kind of went through a similar feeling or were you just like sure in who you you know wanted to be as as a husband and a father and and ready to just to just go or was there some fear there, some anxiety there for you?

SPEAKER_01 37:19

So uh yeah so I talked about how like by the time I was a senior in high school and in my early twenties I kind of like had that revelation period part of that was I want to be a dad. I want to be a husband and with I want to be a husband came I don't want to be my dad and I don't want to be my stepdad. And not because I had any resentment toward them but I saw where they fell short and I was honest with myself about that. And I said if I'm gonna be a husband I'm not gonna do this or I am going to do this. Um so kind of having that mentality and that didn't prevent me from you know dating the wrong girl or anything like that but when I I I kind of made it a point to if I entered a relationship it was with intent um which again is kind of atypical or countercultural you know especially for millennials or older millennials as we are but elder millennials um but yeah so so um again just kind of the atypical point of view because I I know a lot of my guys a lot of guys my age at that time were like you know marriage or being a dad was the last thing on their mind but I always enjoyed like you know I was an uncle at uh how old I'm six years older than my nephew. He's more like a little brother yeah yeah so my my half sister her son um so I always enjoyed kids like being around other kids and um yeah like there's a picture of me as a kid holding this tiny little baby and it's like I I send it to my nephew every now and again I'm like hey remember this no you don't because you were an infant um but yeah like so so it was kind of like imprinted on me I guess like you have a real cool opportunity to be an impact in somebody's you know life like and then of course later get to create life you know like it's it was always a cool like concept and then you know ultimately a desire to be a dad um now to your point once you kind of hit that milestone um the funny part is is I told my wife she was pregnant before she knew she was pregnant. Oh wow yeah I was like I think you're pregnant she's like no way I was like let's go get a test and then lo and behold she's pregnant uh but uh but yeah um in that moment where okay this is something I've always wanted but there is that kind of shock and awe of this is happening this is real what you know as much as I say I'm not gonna be my stepdad as much as I say I'm not gonna be my dad what horrible qualities are going to come out um and that's something I still wrestle with today because there are um my dad had a pretty hot temper growing up and um you know I have a pretty hot temper probably takes more to set me off than than it did for him but and I'm constantly apologizing to my kids because I never received one apology when you know you would fly off the handle. And not that he was never like we got spanked but it was never like beyond that. There was no like I would never consider myself an abused child by any means. But again I think he was a product you know his grandmother hey go get me a switch because you you know dropped a plate you know my great grandmother that was her her MO you know yeah and then you know Pappy my great grandfather if he got home and something wasn't done then you know there were consequences for it. So again like my dad was just kind of a product of how he was raised and um you know tell stories about that stuff all the time and it was like it was interesting but sad. Yeah you know uh it's like I'm sorry kind of sorry that was your childhood um but yeah I I you know as much as we want to say we're not gonna be a certain type of person sometimes you know it comes back comes back up pretty uh pretty frequently so um yeah that's I think that's kind of just how I look at how I've been form formulating it's like okay well I know this about me what can I do to correct it um and I don't think I'll ever champion it like I don't think I'll completely overcome it.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

I mean I never say never but um I think you know just being aware like matter of fact early today yelled at my son for something and was very quick to be like hey I'm sorry I shouldn't have shouldn't have gotten so upset like it's not as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be but yeah I mean modeling that you know um apology and owning it that's huge. I I think to me that is bigger than uh messing up and and and yelling or or lashing out in anger. I mean I I I can relate to that a lot um I've already I've already shared my story but I could definitely tap into some anger really easily that was like a very easy emotion to understand and to harness even at a very young age and I have tried so hard to you know not let myself get to that point. And just like you said I it takes a lot for me uh to get to that point. But there are there have been moments and you know I've I've found myself many times you know sitting down with my son sitting down with my daughter and and apologizing. And you know my my son gets it he's about to be sick so he's he's very he understands you know the even the apology part of it you know because at a young age you're like go say you're sorry. They're just saying words they don't know what they're doing. My daughter is starting to kind of understand that a little more and so I like I said I really feel like modeling that is key. And then you model that at a young age they really start to understand that like hey it's okay to mess up and but we need to own it. Right. As hard as it might be to have This conversation, I gotta do this, right? Um, and I just think that that's such a good lesson to learn, you know, even at a young age, you know, for your kids, uh, so that they that's not foreign to them, right? Um, that's the then it's okay, it's okay to yell and be mad and then just never do anything about it. And then they have to deal with that later on in life, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

So those are the things that you and I had to deal with to figure out. And now, you know, we we're we're doing what we can to be better. Um, we're still gonna mess up. But the intention is there and the ownership is there, and I think that that's that's really what's key. Um, so you know, at this point in our lives, um, being elder millennials, like we said, um uh it's it's inevitable that we're going to face um you know the pain of losing uh loved ones and people that are close to us. It I feel like at this point in my life, um I it used to be all these announcements of weddings and babies, and there's still announcements announcements of babies, but I feel like now it's more announcements of you know, this loved one is sick or this loved one has passed, and you know, it is it sucks. It just sucks. And so, you know, you've you've shared with me a little bit about that, but I wanted to kind of give you some space if you wanted to talk about that as well, because I know that you have experienced, you know, a lot of loss recently. And so do you want to share about that a little bit and and talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Absolutely. Um just as insofar as you know the topic at hand, you know, when we're talking mental health, um just as a kind of a a prelude to to what I'm about to talk about, um, it's never been like I've never had a particular struggle with mental health. Like I said, I've always been pretty even keel um and you know been able to kind of uh process my emotions, you know, in a healthy way. Um and unfortunately over the last we'll say we'll say two thousand well, we'll s say pre-COVID, so 2018, 2019, just around then is kind of where I saw a turn um in how I was dealing with things. And what ended up happening is because of COVID, I was laid off from my job, um, which you know was a job that I really enjoyed. I wanted to make a career out of. Um, and I was struggling to find anything new, which kind of sent me into a spiral. I was home all day, which you know was fine, because you know, it was like, okay, well, silver lining, I get to spend time with my kids, and you know, they're little at that point, so it was like, you know, this this isn't the worst thing. You know, I would get up and you know, at least three or four times a week, I'd walk the loop at the apartment complex where I'm living at the time, and you know, try to stay active so that you know I wasn't getting you know down on myself, but then it was like four or five months into being unemployed and you know, COVID was starting to ramp up, and it's like, okay, this is this is pretty taxing. Um and then, you know, worrying about, you know, at the time, no one really knew anything about COVID. Yeah. So I was like, okay, well, am I do I need to worry about my kids' safety? Like my wife was like, hey, if you don't feel like it today, I'll go to the store so I we can get groceries in. My immediate was responsible response because you know, we're supposed to be the protector. You know, no, you stay here with the kids, I don't want you out there. You know, little the virus, whatever, but you know, people are crazy right now. Like, I don't want you or the kids exposed to that. Um, so it was like just the heaviness of that circumstance. Um, all the while my mom is um um she's diabetic, so it's like worrying about her, um, worrying about my dad at this point in his life. Um my dad had six bypasses done on his heart in 2009. Wow. Um he had kidney problems. They could honestly could write a medical journal on my dad um because of all his comorbidities, but so I'm like extremely worried about my parents and their health. Um, and it's just like this avalanche of just pressure and everything. Um and it's like, how do I navigate this? What can I do? I don't have a job, you know, I can't provide for my family. You know, now fortunately at that time we were getting like the stimulus checks and you know unemployment increased by like a hundred percent or whatever it was. It was kind of kind of nuts, but um, you know, that that kind of alleviated a little bit of those concerns, but it still felt it felt wrong in a way, you know, like like the world was turning upside down. Yeah. Um I was fortunate enough when th once things calmed down from COVID to get another job, um, selling investment strategies. Well, that ended up being short-lived as well, because at that time is when uh the stock market started to tank.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

So I got laid off again. Um, needless to say, that was taxing. Um my dad's health at that time started to decline. Um so you know, it became a conversation of you know, he's in and out of the hospital every month for something. Um his doctor, who we had trusted for years, misprescribed, I don't know if that's a right word, but prescribed an antibiotic that um conflicted with a lot of his other med medications and sent him into kidney failure. Wow. So on top of heart disease, on top of some other issues he was having, he had to go on dialysis. At that point, for me, amidst all this other stuff I had going on personally, um the writing was on the wall. Um I knew my dad was not gonna be around for much longer. And he was, I mean, at this point he's in his 80s, so it was like I know my dad's not gonna live forever, but you know, this is this is real. So fast forward, um he passed it'll be three years ago, this August. And even though we saw it coming, it was it was tough because it was a conversation between me and my siblings to put him on hospice. Um and yeah, I was literally there for his last breath, me and my brother. We didn't want our sisters there because we didn't want them to witness that, and they respected that. Um didn't make it any easier for them, but I'm glad that me and my brother were there with him. Um all the while prior to my dad passing, um my wife's grandfather, who through being with her as long as I have, I grew very close to. Um he had passed about 18 months prior, unexpectedly. So that was another, unfortunately, very influential man. He's a very strong, great Christian man. Um very knowledgeable. He was constantly reading, you know, the Bible, reading, you know, anything he could to better understand scripture, to better understand what it means to be a Christian, you know. So um that was already, you know, that was already heavy, heavy on our hearts. Um, and then kind of the cherry on top was two months later after my dad had passed, my father-in-law passed from cardiac arrest unexpectedly. Wow. And that is a phone call that is hot ironed into my brain. It was my mother-in-law who called me and she's crying. I said, Andrea, what's wrong? Tell me what's wrong. And she goes, He's gone. I need you to call Becca, I can't do it. Oh man. I said, Who's gone? Fred. What do you mean? He was in the backyard, I think he was mowing. I got home and he was on the ground. She had gone home from work and found him in the backyard. Um so within a span of 18 to 20 months, lost probably the three most influential men in my life. Not an easy thing. Yeah, so when I think mental health, that put me into a very dark time. Um I was in the lead up to my father passing, unemployed again. Fortunately, I was able to find another job. But in the meantime, I had been so down from being unemployed and wondering what kind of man can provide for his family. Um had really just kind of let myself go. Come to find out, by the grace of God, I truly, truly mean that in the most literal sense. Um I got an interview to just be a delivery courier, like third-party delivering Amazon, whatever else. Um went in for a DOT physical because of the vehicle I would have been driving. Blood pressure through the roof, blood sugar through the roof. Um, the urgent care sends me to the hospital to find out I'm type 2 diabetic with hypertension. Wow. So if we're doing a recap, uh wife's grandfather passes away, I'm unemployed again, I get diagnosed with very serious health conditions. Um, but again, I I look back at that and I say, you have nobody to blame but yourself. You know, I've I've always been good at rationalizing and making peace with things fairly quickly. And I look at the realization of those diagnoses as God saying, here's your wake-up call, you know, type of thing. Um, so like I don't I try not to heart harp on that too much. But then, you know, post-diagnosis, I lose my dad and my father-in-law. So it's like, this sucks. Yeah. This is probably the worst time of my life. Um so needless to say, uh as much as I didn't struggle with mental health through all the other stuff in my adolescence, the last almost ten years has been just a slog through the mud. Yeah. Um yeah. So it's something I'm still processing. I mean, for anybody that's lost a loved one, it doesn't necessarily get easier at all. Um, you know, can't kind of you get those constant reminders of those things. Um but yeah, that's you know, it's kind of where I am right now. And I want to I I still want to say, like, I I don't think I'm at my lowest, like I was in the midst of that. I think I'm doing pretty good to kind of pull myself back to where I need to be, but um that's just it. It's it can't just be me, you know, and that's something I recognize and I give credit to, you know, my wife, you know, my in-laws, my family, you know, of people trying to pull me out. But at the same time, there's that like creeping doubt, like, is my support system as good as I think it is? You know? Um, you know, the friends that I have, like, do they actually care? Like, and for me, like that's that's like Satan in your ear, you know, like whispering in your ear like you're not good enough, you know, nobody actually cares how you feel. You know, the friends that you call friends aren't actually your friends, that type of thing. And it's like those seeds of doubt make it all the more hard to process any of that. Um so pretty, pretty tumultuous time.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Yeah, I mean, I I think what you have been through and continue to work through is uh is is a lot, and and it I think it's it's okay to say that. Like it, I I want to acknowledge that. And you know, something that you said too just when you lose someone, you know, uh a lot of times we have this thought that like at some point I'll get over this or I'll get through this. And you know, I've started to realize like you don't really get over it or get through it. It's it it kind of lives with you forever, you know. Like I really feel like grief is a journey and it looks different every day. I mean, it's you you you have you have some times, you have some days where it's like, okay, I'm doing okay, like I'm I'm all right. And then you have some days where you're just like, I don't want to get out of bed, you know, because because all of this is just weighing heavily on me, and how can I think about anything else? You know, how can I how can I be productive today when I'm carrying this? And so, you know, like I said, with what you have been through, um, it's really heavy. And I'm curious, you know, what does your relationship with grief look like today? Like how how would you say you are processing things and and walking through things, you know, even today?

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Yeah, it's uh it's a little bit of a unique thing because um, you know, I'll I'll put on you know classic rock or something like that, and it's like my daughters call or I'll put a well actually I'll put on like doo-wop, like 50s music, you know, or like Elvis or something. And my sisters or sisters and my daughters are like, this is grandpa music. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, it is. I was like, I was like, that's why I'm listening to it, and it's like it helps. Like, and the other day I just like I started bawling because my my youngest Evie, she comes into the kitchen while I'm making dinner, and she goes, and I keep like a little like pill speaker in the kitchen when I'm cooking and stuff. I'll I'll put on music and she comes in the kitchen because she goes, Daddy, and said what? She goes, Can you put on grandpa music? I really like that grandpa music. And it's just like floodgates open, you know, like of course I can swear, like you know, like yeah, yeah, let's listen to some grandpa music. And it's and you know, and anytime that happens, man, and God is so good in this. Anytime that happens, it's like a flood of questions about their grandfather.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

And it's so cool to be able to like share my memories with them. Yeah. But you know, at the same time, at the same time, like your your heart hurts, but it's like this is such a cool opportunity for me to be able to share my dad with my kids. Because I mean, as the youngest of five, the last to have kids, you know, like they didn't know him as long as like my 16-year-old nephews. Sure. You know, so their their memories aren't as established with them. You know, so I love being able to show them pictures like, hey, here's grandpa holding you when when you were an infant, you know, we went to Bob Evans and you know, you put whipped cream on your nose and that type of thing. It's like if if there was one thing my dad passed on to me, oh I'll I'll I'll put it this way my favorite thing that my dad passed on to me is his fierce, absolute devotion to his family. He loved his family, he would have done anything for any of us. Um, especially in his older years. Family meant more to him than anything. So I I I have a similar approach. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's even more as far as my grief, it's even more complicated too, because um, and this this again is is a god thing to me. We are currently living with my mother-in-law, me and my wife and my kids. And really, I think it's a a blessing for both of us. We were in a position where we couldn't find another place to live. Our apartment was not renewing our lease. My mother-in-law offered up to let us stay with her over the last couple years. But I think it's a bit cathartic for all of us. Um, you know, I'm able to help around the house and do things that my father-in-law otherwise would have been doing. And, you know, as as much as as much as it sucks to not walk into that house and see him sitting in his favorite spot, you know, reading the Bible or something like that, um, the memory of that is a nice thing to have. So it's again, it's kind of like that that bittersweet feeling of like, hey, my kids, you know, were in the same house that their popop lived in. They get to see their meme every day. Um, they get to, you know, really foster that and grow that relationship. And it's the same thing applies, you know. Oh, you know, pop liked this type of food, or oh, is this popop's cookbook that he loves so much? Like, you know, I have my father-in-law's old apron that I wear when I cook. Because he loved to cook, loved to grill and all that stuff. So um, it's kind of like that. Just like, hey, let's let's make sure we're remember remembering these people that impacted us so so heavily. So yeah, the the grief piece is is it's so complex, man. It's it's just like I wish it spoke more in the Bible about grief, you know, on a on a much deeper level, because it is so it's just so nuanced and like you know, difficult for a lot of people to to understand. But um yeah, yeah, it's kind of where I'm at as far as you know, day to day, just you know, relishing in the opportunities, but you know, still still that pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Yeah, and I would agree. I mean, I think um, you know, the Bible does talk about grief, um, but it's not as it's not as um in your face, it's not as obvious, you know. And I think the same could be said about our own personal lives. Like, you know, I I think for me as a man, like I wasn't taught a lot about how to handle emotions. I certainly wasn't taught anything at all about grief. Like that's like the least emotion that I'm aware of. Right. And and so you know, working through that, you're kind of just it's kind of just like riding a wave, you know, because like I don't know where this is gonna take me today, but I just gotta, I gotta, I'm, I'm here for the ride, you know, and then you kind of learn and um it's really great. I I I love hearing these stories that you're able to share these memories, you know, uh with your children because in a lot of ways you're you're you're sharing why you love this person so much, you know, or these people so much. Um and and that love is able to continue to grow in your heart even after they're gone. And I just think that there's something really beautiful about that. Um and it's amazing that you have those you have the spaces for that and those moments for it. So one thing you talked about uh a little bit earlier, you know, at especially as you were um as these things are happening in real time and they're really fresh, um, you you were questioning whether you had you know a good support system in your life. Uh you know, outside of of our spouses, you know, I think a lot of times as as men, especially when we get married and we s we start to have children, we start to kind of you know move away from having a lot of close relationships outside of you know that family circle. And that's very natural, it's a normal thing. But you know, a lot of times in life we face things and it's it it'd be really great to have you know someone close that we could talk to, that we could feel like we could talk to about anything and just and know that their support is there. And and um, you know, I know for me I've had moments in my life where like I had those relationships, I didn't have those relationships. It's it's very normal. And I I love the joke about you know, the hardest thing to believe in the Bible is that Jesus was thirty-three with twelve close friends because it's impossible. It's insane, right? But um it's it's just very it's very true that you know, uh I think a lot of times, you know, we could we could be in these moments where we're we're searching for those relationships and they're not really there or they're kind of there, but we're like, I don't know, like are we really that close? Can I really talk? Can I really lean on this person? Can I really ask for help? You know, that's a big thing for us as men is like we don't want to do that, and and and it it feels wrong. It feels you know like we're not doing what we're supposed to do. So I'm I'm curious, you know, uh throughout these really difficult years and as you're still, you know, in in your walk with grief, do you have friends in your life that you feel close close with that you could talk about anything that you could call them up and say, hey man, I'm really I'm having a hard day, like and and they'll be there. Like I'm curious if you have that in your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

So I think overall as men we just suck at that part of of life. Um and I think it's a cultural imprint on us that again, we're the protector, we're the provider, and if we're not doing those things, then we're somehow failing. Um so it's a that's a lot of pressure. I mean, and and and people don't want to acknowledge it, people don't believe that it's a lot of pressure, but it's a lot of pressure. And I think that works against us in those moments. Because I have friends that I know would do anything for me, but can they pull the trigger to do anything for me? In the I would never question in their head for prime example is my best friend Mark. He's helped me in multiple different ways through the course of our friendship. Um going on 30 years of friendship. But he also lives three hours away in Philly. So it's like what do you try? Like, he came for my dad's funeral, you know. He he he was there for me, and you know, I kind of regret because he lost his father as well. I wasn't able to be there for him, you know. But again, it's not that I didn't want to be, I wanted to be there for him.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

And it's like I think we we let things get in the way of fulfilling that purpose. Um, so it's it's like, yeah, I could call somebody and I think their intent would be, yeah, I can drop everything, be there for you. But it's the actual action that becomes the hardest part. So yeah, I and again, it's kind of like that seeds of doubt thing that I was talking about earlier, where you know, if I do reach out to somebody and you know they don't respond, it's like, okay, how good of friends are we actually? Start questioning that. Um which is is tough because in that moment, hey, I I need somebody, I need it, I need an ear. And even if it's not to the point of like, you know, suicidal thought, you know, but just that like I need that emotional release, whatever that looks like. Um and it could, I mean, it could be a 15-minute conversation. Yeah. Enough to just kind of quell that um that gut-wrenching feeling, or or whatever the case may be. Um but yeah, as as a whole, I think we suck at at doing that for each other as men. But to more pointedly ask your question, I th I would say there's probably four or five guys that I could reach out to. Unfortunately, three of the five live in different places that are way too far away. But uh yeah, it's so it's yeah, my my brother-in-law is is one of them. He's he's uh great guy. He's he's also a former Marine, very, very devoted Christian. Um I'm sure if I called him up and I was in you know dire straits, he would he would drop everything. So Yeah, definitely, definitely have a handful of guys that I know I can count on. If if we'll say if crap really hits the fan. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

That's good. I I I think you know it's it's hard as men to pull the trigger to ask, and it's also hard to pull the trigger to show up because it just seems so foreign, right? And there's a lot about how we're raised and our culture and even just the underlying expectations that we put on ourselves that we're like, I can't ask for help because then that means I'm failing, right? But it it's really important to have people that we can reach out to, whether it is a serious moment, you know, where we're wrestling with suicidal ideation or we're just really feeling low and like, man, I'm just not doing okay, and I need someone to talk to. I need to be able to have this conversation, I need to have a safe space where I can just let it all out. You know, I I know for me, like I struggle to do that with my wife because I don't I have this voice in the back of my head that's saying, oh, if you show that vulnerability with her, then that means she's gonna think less of you or she's not gonna think you know you're you're the man that she married, she's not gonna think that you're living up to X, Y, and Z. And so I hold I hold myself back, you know, to have some of those conversations. So then if, you know, if if I have no one to talk to, then what do I do with those thoughts, right? What do I do with the feelings that I just need to process and deal with? You know, so for for me personally, therapy has been really good. It's been a really safe space, but it's also been a space where I can just do some hard work, where I can just say, like, you know, I I'm really struggling with this thing, and this is how I view it, and this is how I've always done things, but I'm starting to really feel like, is this right? Like, is this actually the best way? Is this healthy? And, you know, through conversation, through resources, through, you know, uh reframing things, it's like, oh, okay, this is why I feel this way, and this is why I do this thing, and and maybe I can try this and it'll it'll be better. Um, and it's it's been a grind. Like it's I'm not gonna lie, like therapy has its fun days and some not fun days. Like there's some there, definitely some days where I really feel like I come out of a session and I'm like, man, I really feel like I was able to deal with some things and like express some things, and I kind of feel like a weight lifted off of me, and that's a really good feeling. And then there's some days where I'm just like, man, I was really challenged and like I don't know what I'm gonna do about this thing, you know, and so but now that I have it in front of me, I have to do something, right? I can't just like turn my back on it. So it's like, all right, you know, gotta deal with that thing now. So it it's it's a it's a grind, is what I'll say. Um have you have you done therapy? Have you looked into therapy? I'm curious, you know, kind of where you are with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

So uh one of the other things I get honest from my dad is being a cynic. Um so I'm very, very much of the mentality that therapy is not for everybody. And I say that coming from a place of formally coming coming from a place of of of therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists, psychiatrists are all hacks. Um I've since graduated to not being so closed-minded. Um mainly I owe that to my my my sister-in-law because um she it's helped her tremendously.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:55

So I would never ever diminish anybody going to to therapy because I know it does work.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:01

Um but for me, part of what holds me back is feeling like I already have a field manual in the Bible. And I'll actually, you know, reference what DJ was saying in his episode of uh the podcast that, you know, he had the guy say, you know, it says not to worry in the Bible. It's like it's like that's so unhelpful.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

Um because you know, as as much as we can lean on the Bible to to help us process, like there's other resources that God has blessed us with, and and therapy can be one of those resources. So like it's kind of like this it's stubbornness at the end of the day and pride. Yeah. Um to say, like, oh, I've got the Bible, like it tells me everything I need to know about how to deal with this life. But you know, it's not that simple. It's so much more complex than that. So you know, for unfortunately, the cynic and and that pride and stubbornness piece really plays a part in me. Not not that I'm completely opposed to the idea, it's just, you know, it it that's what holds me back from from seeking it out. And i i the stupid thing about that, if if I'm totally honest, is you know, I I say in him I'm an open book. You know, I'm I'll talk to anybody about anything. I don't mind sharing, you know, my struggles, I don't mind sharing, you know, the worst parts of my life. So it's like, why wouldn't I talk to somebody who's studied on how to process that stuff? You know, so it's I I equate I equate a lot of things that I don't do to having an answer key to a test, but not being able to write in the answers.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

Sure. You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:00

Um and again, a multitude of reasons as to why, but like that's the best analogy I can think of. Um so suffice to say, it's not that I've never considered therapy, it's probably more that I'm too stubborn to seek out that help. You know, but you know, on my on my lowest days, I think it becomes more and more apparent that it, you know, there might be a benefit there. So not out of the realm of possibility by any means.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

Yeah, and honestly, I can relate to a lot of those same feelings of like, well, you know, I I know what the Bible says about this, and I know like what I'm supposed to do, or I know what I'm supposed to look to. You know, I I was a pastor, so I was very much adamant about, you know, just you know, go to God, right? Go to prayer, find community, read your Bible, what does God say about these things, and you know, set your mind to that. And so I for a long time I was I was very resistant as well. And I also really felt like I would, I would uh in a lot of ways, I would uh discredit the things that I've been through and and I'm dealing with and say, well, it's not that bad, right? Like there's people who have gone through way worse, people who are dealing with so much more, so like maybe they need that, but I don't like and I started to kind of realize, oh, like no, I need this. Like, and and what I'll say too is just to encourage you, and I'm sure you know this, but there's so many different forms of therapy. Um there's many different types of therapists. Um, and I've said it before on here, say it again, you know, uh the first my first time with therapy, I had a terrible therapist and for a long time didn't go back, you know, um, because I was just like, well, that's not for me. Like that was terrible. But there's even some really great, qualified uh Christian therapists as well, um, who who will use that same foundation that you have to help you through that, but also to help you in a clinical way as well. And so there's, I mean, there's a lot of different things there. I would encourage it. It's it's totally your call, but I'm always going to be the kind of guy that encourages it. But there's definitely, you know, a lot of uh different types of therapy out there for sure. So uh kind of talking a little bit about community, you know, the close think about the close friends in your life or the men in your life that you you know interact with uh more frequently. Do they talk about mental health or do they kind of avoid the topic of mental health?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:40

It's it's funny because you know, they go on on social media and stuff, you know, you say, you know, had a tough day at work, I'll send my best friend five videos to show him that you know I still care or something like that. Like, so it's it's this, you know, it's funny, but not funny because we're building a culture of like just shoving that emotion down hiding behind memes, exactly memes for days. Um the uh so to the same point as like, hey, could I call them up and they drop everything and be there? It's like if I bring it up or they bring it up, we'll talk about it. But it's not like even even at times when I've been like, hey, let's do a daily check-in. Happens for a couple days and then it falls off. Sure. You know? And again, I think that's our like, oh well, I was working, oh well, you know, I had this to do with my kids, like that protector provider uh mentality. You know, we just let that other stuff kind of wash over anything we actually personally have going on. So yeah, I it it's a topic that can be talked about, but it's not like we're not it's not being volunteered, you know, as as much as it should be. Which uh, you know, it's unfortunate. You know, it's it's very much to the detriment of of our own, you know, health. As somebody with chronic illnesses, like, you know, the the mental piece of it is, you know, I would say more important, honestly. Yeah. Because your ment your mental health can very easily dictate your physical health, and I'm a I'm a testament to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Yeah, I think uh, you know, community in general is is needed, um, especially for men, because we often isolate in many ways. And you know, those those check-ins are really good and it's hard. I mean, life gets so busy and and we can easily fall away from that. Um but I do think that that community piece is is critical, you know, to um just encouraging, you know, really how are you doing? You know, it's it because a lot of time as men would be like, how are you doing? I'm good. Yep, I'm fine, you know, and we just brush off. Let's focus on someone else now. You know, I don't want to talk about me. Um, but you know, I I just I am constantly in this in this mentality now, uh especially losing a close friend uh to suicide. I'm constantly in this mentality now of like, how are my friends actually doing? You know, and I don't want to be like weird and and push too much, but I'm always just kind of like looking for things, you know, I'm always just trying to be, you know, really uh cautious. And even even as men, a lot of times we joke around with each other ruthlessly, you know, especially over like sports and things like that. I'm sure you can relate to that. Like it it is just a thing we do, and it's like it's fun, and it's you know, it's all in good fun, but you know, I I've found myself kind of checking myself every once in a while, like, oh man, like did I go a little too hard? Like, I wonder how they're doing, you know. Um, and so I I think you know having the intention is great, you know, and and I I hope that you know, as men and in our culture, we can do better about being more intentional in general, you know, with with our friends, with the especially the men in our lives, because I just feel like it that that's not as common, you know. And I and I I don't want to speak for women because I'm not a woman, you know, but I I do know that women are much more open to talking about what they're going through. And and even not even just that, but like open and emotionally aware to to speak to and to form words to what they're going through. Whereas men were just like, I'm okay. And I don't really know what that means. That could be on a scale of like one to a hundred. I don't really know where I am on that, but it's like I'm all right, you know. But yeah, I just I really feel like um that's that's what our culture needs is just more intentionality and being willing to have hard conversations and being willing to just sit with someone in that. You know what I mean? Um so I so yeah, I I hope you have that in your life. And um, if you don't, I hope that you're seeking that because that's that's something I just think is so critical, you know, for us as men.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

Yeah, to to that point, it's one thing that like I'm sure holds a lot of guys back is like, you know, how are you? Well, you want the short version or long version? Well, the the long version, well, the car payments due and you know, the the sink's backed up and you know, my kids fail into class, or you know, like do I want to, you know, word vomit and trauma dump on you, or do you know, do I just want to say, I'm good, everything's great. You know, it's and it's like you know, I think just like worrying about that burden piece. Yeah, you know, I don't you know, I you have enough problems of your own, you don't need my problems on top of it. Um, yeah, that's an unfortunate as as wrong as I know it is, it's something that I succumb to fairly often. You know, hey, I don't want to be a burden on you. Uh you know. Uh especially you know with your closest friends, because more often than not you do you do know what they have going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

So it's like, you know, even if they're not speaking it, you see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Um, so it's you know, that's that just complicates everything even further.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:13

Yeah, absolutely. So if you could, I want to kind of go go back to um just kind of I I like asking this question because uh, you know, it it always kind of elicits a different response, but it also just kind of gets you thinking. It always makes me think too. Um but if you could talk to your younger self, whether that be, you know, five-year-old, you, twelve-year-old, you, eighteen, whatever, um, and think about a time where you can go back and talk to the younger version of yourself, um, what would you say? Like what what advice would you give? What encouragement would you give? What warning would you give? You know, like think about a time where you're like, man, if I could go back to this point in my life, this is what that age of me needed, and this is what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:06

I think I'd go back to when I was probably about thirteen or fourteen. How important it is that really because I think it would have made I think it would have made such an impact. Not that I necessarily would have reshaped my future because I have a tattoo of John 1633, which is you know, in this world you'll find trouble but take hard to overcome the world. Paraphrasing, of course, but nothing ever says that life's gonna be easy because you're following Jesus, but it does make it easier to manage. Um so I think right around that time, if I was able to you know convince my younger self, hey, this is only gonna help, I think that would have benefited me greatly. I used to think, hey, go back and tell yourself to do better in school, so yeah, so that uh you're better set up for your future. But you know, uh as I've gotten older, my my eternal salvation is more important to me than anything. So if I could have started that journey even just a couple years earlier, you know, I think that would have helped tremendously. And not, I mean, not that there's anything wrong with wanting you know to kind of reshape how you went through like school or something like that, but there's there's bigger things at stake when you don't when you're not following Jesus, you know, when you're not in the word and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:57

Now thinking about the the men in your life or just any man that that chooses to listen to this podcast, um, what message do you want them to hear when it comes to you know vulnerability or mental health or just generally walking through life and and and dealing with these things, whether they be, you know, uh difficult things from their childhood or difficult things from you know recent years and loss and grief, what is some encouragement that you would want to leave them?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:32

I know this is like this is incredibly cliche, but but keep moving. Keep going. As we've both already said, it doesn't necessarily get easier, but in your movement. Because you know without without him it's infinitely more difficult to handle. Something that I know from my adolescence, from those those middle school years, because I remember specifically cursing God in that moment. In that moment of my parents are no longer together. I've been uprooted from everything I know and love. Where's God and all this? I still believed in him. I was just mad at him. And in retrospect, I turned my back on him. He never left my side. And it's by his grace that, you know, I am a husband. I'm a father. I'm able to sit down here with you and do this podcast. You know, so keep moving, but move toward a relationship with our creator. Dive headlong into scripture, something I'm admittedly terrible at. You know, I I should be picking my Bible up every day and I don't. And I know that it would be beneficial. And I know that it is beneficial because on a day where I've spent some time in the Word, 95% of the time goes infinitely better than days when I don't. Yeah. Um so just establish that foundation. And then the second piece to your point is find community. You know, um, I'm trying to build back to that. Um, you know, as a relatively new attendee of collective. Um, you know, join the men's group, probably not the best time because baseball's ramping up now for my son. So it's like that's kind of getting in the way. But um, my goal in joining the men's group is you know, fostering more community. Hopefully, I can be like Jesus and have the 12 close friends. But uh but yeah, that's uh I mean, so yeah, to to sum that all up, keep moving toward your relationship with God and to find that community and and seek help. I mean, just just in your lowest moments, be vulnerable, be willing to share, you know, find an ear that'll listen. Um, you know, I'm a pretty good listener, I think. Yeah. But my wife might disagree. Depends on the topic. Uh but uh what do they know, eh? Uh but yeah, that's uh hopefully I know it's kind of cliche advice, but uh I, you know, I think I've seen enough from other people in my life and how it's impacted them and from myself to know that that formula works. Like if if through my struggles that I've shared today, I wasn't pursuing God at the same time, as hard as it was at times, I don't know what the outcome would have been. So um hopefully that that helps somebody.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:00

Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. I appreciate it. Well, Chad, thank you for sharing so openly. Um, I really appreciate it. And uh yeah, I'm excited to uh to share your story with with others, and and I hope it helps somebody, you know, feel like they can open up or to see community. And yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:18

Yeah, this is awesome. Thank you, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:34

Thank you for listening to the I'm not okay podcast. The purpose of this podcast is to create a space for men to share their stories, express vulnerability, and find strength through honest conversation. While these discussions may touch on mental health topics, I am not a licensed therapist, counselor, or mental health professional. The content is intended to inspire connection, openness, and personal reflection, not to replace professional mental health support. If you are experiencing mental health issues or need support, please seek help from a qualified professional or mental health organization in your area. For immediate help, please call 988 to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. This resource is available 24-7 and is free and confidential. Additional resources can be found in the episode description. If you'd like to share your story on this podcast, I'm not okay, email me at contact.com.